Friends in the same game?

General conversation and discussion about the game, feedback and suggestions

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Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:17 pm

Re: Friends in the same game?

Postby Tonic » Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:49 am

Herman Von Salza wrote:
Tonic wrote:I guess its part of the game as in real life, the only thing is in the last game I saw this in a couple of cases happen again and again with a player essentially turning on every ally he had and trashing every agreement they made. I know it is just a game but I suspect a player like that will keep using the same tactics in every game. Hence I would prefer to know who I am dealing with. But the "makers" logic of not giving the information about player identity for precisely this reason is sound, and though I may run into the situation again I guess in the long run having full information would put an unrealistic tinge on the game. There could be instances when you go against your natural allies because you dont trust the player.


Well, actually it is even very real, if you take medieval politics into account. I think that treason and surprise is part of the game - and should be.
But I dislike it, too, if it is used to much and to ruthlessly.

What I dislike the most though, is the use of an old bug. Some players with a "friendly" status send you and nice little message, often a cooperative one, attaching a peace message (hoping that you don't see it), and use the bug (aiming for neutral territory) to overcome the limit of 1 diplomatic change per turn and invade suddenly.

So, please PSANTOS, fix that bug ... it makes "friendship" worthless ... or correct the wiki so everyone is aware of the problem.

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Re: Friends in the same game?

Postby psantos » Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:55 pm

Tonic wrote:@psantos - I just noticed that it is possible to get the email adress of members posting here by clicking on the "email" button ... even when not logged in!
Shouldn't this at least be restricted to logged-in members of the forum?


Unfortunately, this seems to be a bug in phpbb... I will see what we can do about it...

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Re: Friends in the same game?

Postby psantos » Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:58 pm

Herman Von Salza wrote:Sure, still waiting on a historical scenario (hint hint any news psantos)


You have your wish. A new Hispania Game is waiting for you :)

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Re: Friends in the same game?

Postby Tonic » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:58 pm

Hi!

The historical scenario is over ... and a little disappointing, again, after only 14 turns. The christian side was fully staffed this time. But the muslims started with only 4 factions active. More joined later ... but by then the game was decided already ... Zaragoza dead, Valencia, Cuenca nearly so, Badajoz & Granada strongly reduced. Especially for the carefully balanced historical scenarios there should really be a better mechanism.

Either only start them when all (or at least 90%) of the factions are selected.
Or let the factions only be selected in a certain order (1. christian, 2. muslim, 3. christian, 4. ...)
Or at the very least make sure that non-selected factions are played by AI after turn 1.

Plus: from the current WoT experience I can only repeat two things I would really like to see:
1. knowledge about real player names (to avoid being cheaten by the same people in every game)
2. or maybe make this an option, so you can detect known players, trustworthy companions or friends from earlier games
3. PLEASE FIX THE FRIENDSHIP BUG. :-)

I know, I know, much work ... but I think some of these problems make the game sometimes frustrating - especially for newbies (which is sad, because the game should attract more players ... it's highly interesting)

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Re: Friends in the same game?

Postby Tigger » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:26 am

Well, for my part - I will not play any more games until there are changes that allow to see which people are playing.
I'm sick of encountering the same lying treacherous bastards all of the time.

Just like Herman von Salza said ... this kills the fun for me

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Re: Friends in the same game?

Postby Tonic » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:52 pm

Well, it seems that betrayal is the most rewarding strategy in this game. Which is sad for a wargame. So, at the moment I think that WoT V will be my last game, too. Since friendship is competely worthless (bug) and alliances can thus be betrayed after just one turn without any negative consequences, there is no possibility to trust anyone. Especially since you never know the players. It unnerves me quite a bit.

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Re: Friends in the same game?

Postby psantos » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:28 pm

Unfortunately, the new update is taking much longer to debug than expected...

But we started a new historical scenario, and this time will wait until is almost all filled, before starting.

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Re: Friends in the same game?

Postby Herman Von Salza » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:18 am

Took part in the last historical game. There was no betrayal in this game, it was too short ;) I played Portugal and it was tough at times, I was "lucky" enough that the opposing arab countries were either picked from the start or quickly filled.

One thing I would say for the scenario is that the war in guaranteed. I was actually intending to play the game differently, try and make sense of the situation before making any concrete decisions, however upon choosing a country and getting a look at the alliances already in play it became obvious this was going to be difficult.

I think the neutral areas are the main trigger, and I am not sure if this is a good thing. In the first turn troops from every nation race to conquer the neutral territories, you could of course forgo the experience to avoid trouble but then you stand to loose ground to a potential enemy. So for example I took some of the neutral land because I did not want Alisbunah or Evora to take it and threaten my land. I did not intend to attack them, at least not for a few turns, but as they too attempted to take out the neutral lands I had a war started with Alisbunah by turn 2.

I am not sure I agree with the game mechanics in terms of declaring a war automatically in this situation. Let's say I order troops to take over a neutral land, when they get there they find someone already beat them too it. Is it realistic to assume they would just go ahead and attack? If the leader of the troops has any brains he will check with his lord before dragging his kingdom into a war. Incidentally, maybe treating neutral lands as diplomatic entities could solve the bug? If you have to declare war even to neutrals than there is no problems.

Another possibility would be to get rid of neutral lands in this scenario. Then there will be no ambiguity, you will launch an attack when you intend to attack, war will start because you want it (or because your neighbour wants it) not because your troops happen to meet.

Having said all of the above, I think I am embracing the treachery, not that I intend to use it, but I agree that it would be unrealistic to be able to tell in every situation how everyone will behave. So knowing who everyone in the game is may indeed not be the best solution. I would still insist on the option to start out near your friends in fantasy mode. Fantasy mode does not mean the map has to be random, you could make some maps and let people choose where they start. This could make the maps more realistic with mountain ranges, wide deserts, forested river valleys and plains. Of course appropriate races could be tied to different areas, or you could make it partially adaptable. For example you could choose to start in the mountains but still have a choice of dwarves or barbarians, or in the plains choose between empire/orks/barbarians etc.

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Re: Friends in the same game?

Postby Tonic » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:48 pm

Well, historically correct would be some bickering and even fighting inside the loose christian / muslim alliances. But in this game, it would be a quick death ... if the other side stands together. We would have had the opportunity to split up the alliance before victory conditions were fulfilled. ;-)

It's not so much the neutral territories ... but indeed the "auto-war-declaration". This happens so often when your scouts run into another countries territory while exploring. And it's the cause for the friendship->war bug. So I would propose to stop the auto-war-declaration. If you want to move into a (known) territory owned by someone else with peace-status, it's not allowed. Why not extend this to: if you already moved into the (neutral) territory, you cannot conquer it (anymore) if another party (status peace) happens to conquer it first. And you should not be able to move into another one's territory even if the final destination is a neutral territory (that's a bug anyway)

Regarding diplomatics ... well, of course it is realistic that treason or changing alliances can happen. But, if we speak of realism ... usually such a treason (besides the benefits) would have negative consequences, too. And there would be mechanism to safeguard against it.
Examples from the real world: Lords who betray their allies and defect to the enemy often loose the faith of their subjects. Some of them even rebel and don't agree on the treason. Troops and officers might not easily want to fight Maybe, to ensure your loyalty, some hostages from the royal family would have been sent to the alliance leader. Last but not least, a traitor would be known in the world for his treason and not be trusted anymore. All these negative effects don't appear in the game .... so a treason has only positive benefits and can be done after 1 turn waiting. :-(

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Re: Friends in the same game?

Postby psantos » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:50 am

Tonic wrote:3. PLEASE FIX THE FRIENDSHIP BUG.


I have good news. We have fixed the bug of entering neutral territories to declare war. This fix will be in the new deploy.

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